[ale] [OT] (but computer and cryptography related) Bitcoin, Litecoin

[Ron Frazier (ALE)]

see inline

"Michael B. Trausch" <mbt at naunetcorp.com> wrote:

>On 03/30/2013 04:50 PM, Ron Frazier (ALE) wrote:
>> Actually, it's not true to say that you can trade anything you want.
>> Hypothetically, if person A has atomic bombs that he wants to trade
>> with person B who has boxes of heroine, that would clearly be
>> illegal.
>
>The fact that we have controlled substances doesn't invalidate the
>logic
>of the point.  The Treasury cannot declare a _currency_ illegal, and
>they cannot make _barter_ itself illegal.  Just because there are
>substances, materials and technologies which the government does not
>allow people to have without regulation, or in some cases (such as
>illicit drugs) at all, doesn't mean that the barter itself is even
>illegal.
>
>If I have an atomic bomb, and you have 250 pounds of pure heroin, and I
>decide that your heroin is worth my atomic bomb, we can make the trade.
>
>The government won't punish us for the barter, they'll simply punish us
>for possession and distribution of controlled and/or regulated
>substances.  Totally different concepts.
>
>> Also, it is illegal to trade with certain entities that the
>> state department has on their black list.
>
>I'm not sure why we're bringing embargos and economic sanctions into
>this conversation.  Red herring.
>
>> There is talk in
>> Washington about making this type of currency illegal since it can be
>> used for money laundering and fostering other illegal activities.
>
>And I welcome them to try.  Nothing in the US Constitution empowers the
>Congress to regulate foreign currency, fiat or otherwise.  Trading with
>a foreign entity can be banned, trading with a labelled terrorist
>organization can be banned, but trading in a particular _currency_ goes
>beyond the charter of _this_ government as I understand it.
>
>> Who knows what will actually happen?  They can pass laws to say that
>> anything they want is illegal, including trading pebbles.  It doesn't
>
>Again, I'd welcome them to try.
>
>> have to be logical, and it doesn't have to be sensible, and it
>> doesn't have to be even constitutional, at least in the short term
>> before it gets challenged and overturned.
>
>Doesn't make it any more constitutional.
>
>> If a law is passed and
>> funded, they can fine you and put you in jail for breaking it, like
>> it or not, assuming they can catch you.  Suffice it to say that, if
>> this activity was already illegal, I wouldn't want ! to be doing it.
>
>And that makes you a sheep.  If an action is clearly unconstitutional,
>SOMEONE must get arrested for it, and then APPEAL THE LIVING SHIT out
>of
>it to get it overturned.
>
>Or, as they used to say:  stand up in what you believe in.
>

I do not consider myself a sheep.  I strongly value our freedoms and our heritage.  I believe some things are worth dying for, and some things are worth going to jail for.  But there's also the concept of picking your fights.  It's common for people to spend months or years in jail while they're being CLEARED of whatever they were indicted for.  It's very common to win the fight and lose years of your freedom and potentially millions of dollars in fees and expenses.  Hypothetically speaking, if cryptocurrency were illegal, I don't think it would be wise to paint a target on my back and take on the treasury department of all people just so I can have the right to mine a few grand worth of digital coins.  I have a life.  And, I can do more good for more people if I'm not behind bars and if I am, actually, alive.  

>If everyone thought as you do, nothing would ever be overturned,
>nothing
>would ever be ruled unconstitutional, because nobody would have the
>balls to gain the standing to even be allowed to present the argument
>to
>a lower court, let alone obtain certiorari to present and argue the
>case
>to the SCOTUS.
>
>> What the Treasury department DOES want is for you to report your
>> income and pay taxes on it, no matter how you get it.
>
>Which I do anyway, and will do regardless of the method of exchange.
>That'd be why the law requires people to keep accurate books that
>"clearly" reflect income and assets.  A commonly cited example that I
>have heard many times in the past is that the IRS doesn't give a rats
>rear if you're a drug dealer, as long as you report your income.  After
>all, it wasn't "regular" law enforcement that took down Al Capone, but
>the IRS.  And the government was trying to get him on federal charges
>of
>violation of the 18th amendment to the United States Constitution, but
>they couldn't.
>
>They don't even care if you document your expenses correctly, because
>if
>you don't, you just pay more tax anyway.  If you hide income through
>excessive expenses, or hide assets through dubious transactions, or
>whatever, you're not with the law any longer and the consequences are
>on
>you.
>
>There are corner cases and grey areas, too, of course.  If you trade in
>moon rocks, both parties to the transaction are going to have to find
>some way to represent that in terms of value in the currency used for
>the books; if I have a brand-new monitor, in the box, that I paid $200
>for, and you have a 50 year old collection of moon rocks that Armstrong
>personally gave you, we'd need to agree on a value of the two, in a
>good-faith manner.  In such a situation, one would probably want to
>involve an appraiser, honestly, in order to ensure that there's at
>least
>solid documentation that you were operating on a good-faith basis.
>
>	--- Mike
>
>-- 
>Michael B. Trausch, President
>Naunet Corporation
>
>Telephone: (678) 287-0693 x130
>Toll-free: (888) 494-5810 x130
>FAX: (678) 287-0693
>
>
>
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Ron Frazier
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