[ale] [OT][Way OT] Industrial Power Question

Jeff Hubbs hbbs at comcast.net
Fri Feb 6 15:31:10 EST 2009


Yes - dunno where you got yours but Carmax is doing a mighty fine job of 
selling *new* Chrysler products...that 0% financing is *factory* 
financing, by the way. 

Jeff Lightner wrote:
> A huge portion of our population learned that SUV stands for "Sucks Up
> Valuables" during the past couple of years.   It's a big reason you can
> buy them dirt cheap now (even more so than most autos).
>
> Speaking of which, I just got a great deal on a new Chrysler (not an
> SUV).   The price on the one I was looking at went down by more than
> $2000 AND I got 0% financing without having to give back the rebates.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ale-bounces at ale.org [mailto:ale-bounces at ale.org] On Behalf Of
> Thompson Freeman
> Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 2:32 PM
> To: ale at ale.org
> Subject: Re: [ale] [OT][Way OT] Industrial Power Question
>
> On 02/06/2009 12:10:00 PM, Jim Kinney wrote:
>   
>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2009 at 11:27 AM, Thompson Freeman
>> <tfreeman at intel.digichem.net> wrote:
>>     
>>> My apologies to those who really don't want to see this.
>>> Unfortunately ALE is one place where I can consistently
>>> find intelligent technically informed people, so on the
>>> chance ...
>>>
>>> During the era of $4/gallon fuel, I got to blue sky
>>> thinking about solar power and transportation.
>>> Specifically, rail and/or light rail.
>>>
>>> If my back-of-the-envelop calculations are anywhere near
>>> correct, it is now technically feasible to run a rail
>>> transportation system (say like MARTA for instance)
>>> entirely from solar power collected from the right of
>>>       
>> way
>>     
>>> of the tracks and the roofs of the stations.
>>>
>>> I have recently seen a short article claiming a thermal
>>> solar conversion system is economically competitive with
>>> more traditional electric generation schemes.
>>>
>>> For the back of the envelope stuff...
>>>
>>> My understanding is that current solar collection runs
>>> about 1 watt/sq ft of collection area.
>>>       
>> I am seeing 10W/sq ft on most current PV installations.
>>     
>
> I was working from memory. That said, 10W/sq ft sounds  
> reasonable.
>   
>>  To allow for clouds
>>     
>>> etc, take that to 0.5 watt/sq ft. Lets use a figure of 1
>>> horsepower=1kw, which is some 20% high, but keeps the
>>> number simple and turns on a light also. The Charlotte
>>>       
>> Lynx
>>     
>>> system runs vehicles of 780 rated horsepower,
>>>       
>> Reasonable. The modern diesel/electric is 2200 HP. People
>> haulers like
>> MARTA use bi-directional push-me/pull-me trains. So a
>> "short train" (2
>> car) is likely around 800 HP (12-15 seconds to 50 mph
>> thumnail
>> estimate). Let's call it 1kHP for easy round number and
>> 1hp=1kw again
>> for easy.
>>
>>
>>  which means
>>     
>>> that MARTA may be up to a thousand?? In any event,
>>>       
>> 780x2000
>>     
>>> suggests Charlotte would need to dedicate 1.5  
>>>       
>> million >sq ft of collection per running vehicle for full  
>> power   > usage.
>>     
>
> Ok, making the correction puts Charlotte &/or Atlanta in  
> the 150,000 - 200,000 sq ft range of collectors per  
> operating unit. Which is more better doable.
>
>   
>> And MARTA would need 200k sq ft/train car pair
>> (1000hp/pair x 1000W/hp
>> = 1,000,000 W/train pair; divide by a 50% collection ratio
>> of 5W/ft sq
>> = 200,000 ft sq.)
>>
>>     
>>> Since the vehicles are under full power for only short
>>> periods of time that 1.5 million figure is probably a
>>> multiple of the required power needs, but I don't have
>>>       
>> the
>>     
>>> background to make the adjustment. In any event, that
>>> figure is approximately a strip 14 miles long by 20 ft
>>> wide, or the right of way available to one track of the
>>> Lynx line here.
>>>
>>> The question I have for the bright people here is "Can
>>>       
>> you
>>     
>>> refine these figures/guesses to something a little more
>>> defensible?"
>>>
>>> I probably should offer to purchase a round of virtual
>>>       
>> beer
>>     
>>> for the participants...
>>>
>>> Thanks for the use of bandwidth, and the opportunity to
>>> scratch a nagging itch.
>>>       
>> I have always wondered why PV has not been mandated for
>> rooftops. It
>> just keeps getting better and better.
>> The more that is in use, the more research that gets done
>> to make it better.
>>
>> <tinfoil beanie> of course Exxon, BP, Ford and GM are
>> secretly
>> assassinating photovoltaic researchers
>> worldwide..</tinfoil beanie>
>>     
>
> You can take the tinfoil beanie off on this one. Exxon et  
> al are not going to really push solar because solar doesn't  
> show up even as a rounding error on their business models.  
> The bosses are charged with making their 10% profit without  
> a whole lot of risk. Risky profit is going to take a much  
> higher level of profit to be worthwhile, and most solar  
> schemes that I've heard of are going to take 10 years to  
> turn their profit. Not exactly a deal maker. Plus a huge  
> percentage of our population really really wants to show  
> off with a SUV...
>
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